My name is Patrick McGovern and I manage SourceForge.net. I wanted
to take a moment to address the issues that Loic raised in his
recent article.
As a background: SourceForge.net is a website within the
Open Source Developers Network (OSDN), owned by VA Linux Systems.
SourceForge.net provides free hosting for Open Source software
development projects via its web site at http://sourceforge.net
and http://sf.net
SourceForge.net, OSDN and VA Linux systems are committed to the
Open Source community. Two years ago (almost to the day)
SourceForge.net was started to provide a way for Open Source
developers to collaborate with each other and make great software.
This mission has not changed. Today VA spends a tremendous amount
of money and resources to provide excellent service to 30,000 projects.
Loic brings up a number of points that are simply not accurate.
* SourceForge (not SourceForge.net) is a collaborative software
development platform. The SourceForge software originated as the
foundation of the SourceForge.net service, and is now the basis of
a number of products offered by VA Linux Systems. SourceForge
Enterprise Edition is the commercial product released by
VA Linux Systems last week. SourceForge is a software platform.
* SourceForge.net is a service provided freely to Open Source
software development projects. SourceForge.net is not running
the SourceForge Enterprise Edition software. SourceForge.net is
a web site, which provides a service to the Open Source community.
* SourceForge.net provides free hosting for Open Source Software
development projects. SourceForge.net is not now, or nor has it
ever been, exclusive to free software -- we accept hosting requests
from projects licensed under any OSI-approved Open Source License,
and projects whose licenses have not been directly approved,
but comply with the OSI Open Source Definition.
* Data Export: The ability to export data from SourceForge.net
has not changed. There is no conspiracy to 'lock projects in'
to SourceForge.net. Every project has the ability to download
a nightly tarball of their CVS code. If people have any concerns
about their code, we recommend they set up a cron job to download
the latest version. Eight months ago we did have a XML API that
allowed project admins to download bug report data. The API broke
earlier in the year when we enhanced the SF.NET code (version 2.5)
to include the tracker (a tool that unifies all 'ticket-related'
systems). Until recently, we didn't receive a lot of interest from
the community to re-introduce the feature... so we have been focusing
on other aspects of the site. We are now re-examining the issue.
In the mean time, there are third-party programs which will collect
the content directly from the site and extract that data.
* Mailing Lists: One area we concentrating on, which Loic alludes to,
is mailing list archives. This, historically, has been one of the
weakest areas of SourceForge.net. We are currently working on a new
solution, which directly integrates the mailing lists with
SourceForge.net, as opposed to Geocrawler. We have just entered the
initial beta phase for this project. It is still being worked on,
but you can see it here in action:
http://sourceforge.net/forum/?group_id=27464 (look at the last
four forums). We are essentially using the SourceForge Forum code;
the same code base that has been available to the community for
some time.
--
Developers are choosing SourceForge.net because of the excellent
resources and service we give the community. The site is currently
growing at over 60 new projects and 700 developers a day. We just
added new personnel and purchased 70 new servers to make sure we
retain our excellent quality of service. We have added new download
servers to make sure the community can get Source code as fast
as possible. We have been adding additional hardware to
the compile farm. (OS X systems were added last month).
Finally, SourceForge.net is a free service. It's a service I believe
greatly enhances the Open Source Developer's ability to write and
release great software; and have it seen by a lot of people. If you
feel that SourceForge.net is not for you, that is okay too. There are
alternatives out there, and it's better to host your code where you
think you will be the most productive.
If you have any questions or concerns, please feel free to write me:
pat at sourceforge.net
Thank you,
Pat-
Patrick McGovern
email: Pat at SourceForge.net
Director, SourceForge.net
I've commented on this at Advogato, as I work for Slashdot as an author and work for OSDN, I didn't think it would be appropriate for me to post on/. about this issue, I'll leave that to Hemos and Patrick. So I put it on advogato. Check it out there [advogato.org].
IMHO SourceForge is the most dynamic idea-platform for parsecs around, if not in the known universe.
http://sourceforge.net/projects/mind [sourceforge.net] has become the main focus of my Lebenswerk or life-work since 18 July 2001 when the AI Mind project was cleared on SourceForge for go-ahead to the coming Technological Singularity [caltech.edu].
As of this morning on Mon.12.NOV.2001, there were 369 Open Source projects in Artificial Intelligence on SourceForge. In my self-appointed but arguably well-deserved role as a purveyor of AI theory (see Nanomagazine interview [nanomagazine.com]), very truly yours Mentifex here has been working to draw all the AI projects together under a common theory-umbrella -- not forcing the Mentifex theory down anybody's throat, but offering the Theory of Mind [sourceforge.net] as something to react against and improve upon. Just today the Mind-to-C liaison page [sourceforge.net] was updated with links to some of the pre-eminent AI-in-C projects on SourceForge.
If SourceForge were to fail, it would be a sad day for the future of all humanity.
IMHO SourceForge is the most dynamic idea-platform for parsecs around, if not in the known universe.
Beginning this remarkable feat of hyperbole, this post sent my bullshit-o-meter off the scale.
What kind of fucked up moderator thinks this stuff is "insightful"? Is it because he has a project on Sourceforge and uses important-sounding words? Because he has more than two links in his post? Or is any and every post in favor of Sourceforge scheduled to be modded up, no matter how kooky?
Ye gods, follow his links. This guy's "Lebenswerk, or life-work" is apparently coding a full artificial intelligence. In Javascript. Ooookay. The interview and the "Theory of Mind" paper on his Sourceforge page (follow his links!) aren't the most floridly elaborate piece of pseudoscience I've ever read, but it comes close.
Patrick, thanks for the information. I appreciate Sourceforge and what it's given us. However, I am increasingly buying into the Free Software ideology as advocated by the Free Software foundation. I'm even considering discontinuing my use of all proprietary software, at least for personal use, a boycott if you will to help push/vote the software economy in the direction I want it to go.
I've used sourceforge and have a couple of projects there. However, I was quite dismayed when sourceforge became a less than 100% free software organization, and even more at the recent announcements and name changes by VA Linux. I appreciate your position and want you to do what you have to do to stay afloat. I can't fault you for that. However, I'm going to have to leave the sourceforge boat, because it's not doing what I want anymore. I don't want high quality tools as much as I want freedom, and since GNU appears to be planning a free alternative to what sourceforge is providing, I'm going to have to go that way.
Take care, and good luck for the future! I fully expect to meet again on the other side, in better times when VA/Sourceforge comes back to the 100% open source fold!:)
1) I thought the company was no longer "VA Linux Systems," as it had dropped the word "Linux" from its name?
2) From several articles written by Bowie J. Poag I gather than the founding of SourceForge was not quite so happy as you seem to indicate. His allegations are that VA requested that he work on such a project (at the time called system26), but that VA appropriated his work and turned it into sourceforge.
[For those who don't know, Bowie J. Poag is the main force behind Propaganda Desktop Graphics [ibiblio.org], which used to be the main feature of VA's themes.org [themes.org] until Mr. Poag deliberately destroyed the site in protest against VA's actions (it took VA about 6 months to put the site back together again, minus Propaganda, which is now at the new location linked to above).]
You must be new. Themes had problems but it had nothing to do with Bowie or his ridiculous threats. You can download his tiles at the classic.themes.org site still. Bowie wanted us to pull the tiles, but since they were under the gpl, we kept them up there.
Also, Bowie's original idea was for a widget repository, and frankly, we never stopped him from doing it. SF and the sf name came from other places than from Trae and Bowie (I regisetered the domain name). Bowie is under the mistaken impression that only Bowie can have an idea. IF you do a search on bowie and I in slashdot you'll see how long he's been asserting things that simply aren't true. Also, It was called system12 . He has a new project which also probably won't produce anything called system26 or whatever.
Mr Poag did not have access enough to t.o to destroy it, we took down the propaganda specific stuff ourselves and dropped his tiles into the resources set.
I find that comment funny considering our relative Slashdot UIDs. =] Not new, but perhaps misremembering some of the details of the t.o fiasco.
Also, It was called system12. He has a new project which also probably won't produce anything called system26 or whatever.
Yeah, I checked some IRC logs of him explaining this (from #kuro5hin on slashnet a while back) and you're correct. He claims (or at least claimed at the time, about a year ago) that VA still owns the system12 domain name and refuses to relinquish it, despite admitting that they have no plans to develop it, which is why he was forced to rename it to system26.
However, he did have the impression that a good deal of his ideas for system12 were silently merged into SourceForge without any credit, and that he was pushed aside. Not having been there I can't say whether this is accurate or not, but he sure seemed angry about it.
Oh, and he's angry alright. But that doesn't make his anger well placed. He and trae had some weirdness going on, but that really was outside the issue on project hosting.
We did buy the system12 domain at his request, but didn't know we still had it until he threw a fit. at that point itr was easier to let it expire than deal with him.
* SourceForge.net is a service provided freely to Open Source
software development projects. SourceForge.net is not running
the SourceForge Enterprise Edition software. SourceForge.net is
a web site, which provides a service to the Open Source community.
So it's a service, not a software. That's interesting, because it implies that VA won't make its source code available, as a service doesn't have any source code. It is based on a software, but you didn't say that you'll continue to make its source code available as free software.
So I assume that the SourceForge software will become proprietary. Correct me if I'm wrong.
* SourceForge.net provides free hosting for Open Source Software
development projects. SourceForge.net is not now, or nor has it
ever been, exclusive to free software -- we accept hosting requests
from projects licensed under any OSI-approved Open Source License,
and projects whose licenses have not been directly approved,
but comply with the OSI Open Source Definition.
Read the FSF website some day -- free software does not refer to GPL only, it's basically a different term for open source (with some philosophical differences). E.g. the BSD license is an open source license as well as a free software license, but it is not "copyleft." I guess about 40% of the projects hosted by SF are free software, or open source, whichever term you prefer. (The other 60% are status 1, planning.)
Developers are choosing SourceForge.net because of the excellent
resources and service we give the community.
The more interesting question is, will they continue to do so?
SourceForge (not SourceForge.net) is a collaborative software development platform.
SourceForge.net [sf.net] is a service provided freely to Open Source software development projects.
The new name SourceForge.net, and the logo [sourceforge.net] with an enlarged dot and a "net" bigger in point size than the "FORGE", remind me too much of Microsoft.NET [microsoft.net]. Are you porting it to Mono [go-mono.com] or something? I would have called the code SourceForge Engine and the site SourceForge Projects in keeping with the general policy of following trademarks with a generic noun.
From the Site Director of SourceForge.net (Score:5, Informative)
to take a moment to address the issues that Loic raised in his
recent article.
As a background: SourceForge.net is a website within the
Open Source Developers Network (OSDN), owned by VA Linux Systems.
SourceForge.net provides free hosting for Open Source software
development projects via its web site at http://sourceforge.net
and http://sf.net
SourceForge.net, OSDN and VA Linux systems are committed to the
Open Source community. Two years ago (almost to the day)
SourceForge.net was started to provide a way for Open Source
developers to collaborate with each other and make great software.
This mission has not changed. Today VA spends a tremendous amount
of money and resources to provide excellent service to 30,000 projects.
Loic brings up a number of points that are simply not accurate.
* SourceForge (not SourceForge.net) is a collaborative software
development platform. The SourceForge software originated as the
foundation of the SourceForge.net service, and is now the basis of
a number of products offered by VA Linux Systems. SourceForge
Enterprise Edition is the commercial product released by
VA Linux Systems last week. SourceForge is a software platform.
* SourceForge.net is a service provided freely to Open Source
software development projects. SourceForge.net is not running
the SourceForge Enterprise Edition software. SourceForge.net is
a web site, which provides a service to the Open Source community.
* SourceForge.net provides free hosting for Open Source Software
development projects. SourceForge.net is not now, or nor has it
ever been, exclusive to free software -- we accept hosting requests
from projects licensed under any OSI-approved Open Source License,
and projects whose licenses have not been directly approved,
but comply with the OSI Open Source Definition.
* Data Export: The ability to export data from SourceForge.net
has not changed. There is no conspiracy to 'lock projects in'
to SourceForge.net. Every project has the ability to download
a nightly tarball of their CVS code. If people have any concerns
about their code, we recommend they set up a cron job to download
the latest version. Eight months ago we did have a XML API that
allowed project admins to download bug report data. The API broke
earlier in the year when we enhanced the SF.NET code (version 2.5)
to include the tracker (a tool that unifies all 'ticket-related'
systems). Until recently, we didn't receive a lot of interest from
the community to re-introduce the feature... so we have been focusing
on other aspects of the site. We are now re-examining the issue.
In the mean time, there are third-party programs which will collect
the content directly from the site and extract that data.
* Mailing Lists: One area we concentrating on, which Loic alludes to,
is mailing list archives. This, historically, has been one of the
weakest areas of SourceForge.net. We are currently working on a new
solution, which directly integrates the mailing lists with
SourceForge.net, as opposed to Geocrawler. We have just entered the
initial beta phase for this project. It is still being worked on,
but you can see it here in action:
http://sourceforge.net/forum/?group_id=27464 (look at the last
four forums). We are essentially using the SourceForge Forum code;
the same code base that has been available to the community for
some time.
--
Developers are choosing SourceForge.net because of the excellent
resources and service we give the community. The site is currently
growing at over 60 new projects and 700 developers a day. We just
added new personnel and purchased 70 new servers to make sure we
retain our excellent quality of service. We have added new download
servers to make sure the community can get Source code as fast
as possible. We have been adding additional hardware to
the compile farm. (OS X systems were added last month).
Finally, SourceForge.net is a free service. It's a service I believe
greatly enhances the Open Source Developer's ability to write and
release great software; and have it seen by a lot of people. If you
feel that SourceForge.net is not for you, that is okay too. There are
alternatives out there, and it's better to host your code where you
think you will be the most productive.
If you have any questions or concerns, please feel free to write me:
pat at sourceforge.net
Thank you,
Pat-
Patrick McGovern
email: Pat at SourceForge.net
Director, SourceForge.net
Also... (Score:4, Interesting)
Chris DiBona
Parent
SourceForge Will Change World History (Score:1, Insightful)
IMHO SourceForge is the most dynamic idea-platform for parsecs around, if not in the known universe.
http://sourceforge.net/projects/mind [sourceforge.net] has become the main focus of my Lebenswerk or life-work since 18 July 2001 when the AI Mind project was cleared on SourceForge for go-ahead to the coming Technological Singularity [caltech.edu].
As of this morning on Mon.12.NOV.2001, there were 369 Open Source projects in Artificial Intelligence on SourceForge. In my self-appointed but arguably well-deserved role as a purveyor of AI theory (see Nanomagazine interview [nanomagazine.com]), very truly yours Mentifex here has been working to draw all the AI projects together under a common theory-umbrella -- not forcing the Mentifex theory down anybody's throat, but offering the Theory of Mind [sourceforge.net] as something to react against and improve upon. Just today the Mind-to-C liaison page [sourceforge.net] was updated with links to some of the pre-eminent AI-in-C projects on SourceForge.
If SourceForge were to fail, it would be a sad day for the future of all humanity.
Re:SourceForge Will Change World History (Score:2)
IMHO SourceForge is the most dynamic idea-platform for parsecs around, if not in the known universe.
Beginning this remarkable feat of hyperbole, this post sent my bullshit-o-meter off the scale.
What kind of fucked up moderator thinks this stuff is "insightful"? Is it because he has a project on Sourceforge and uses important-sounding words? Because he has more than two links in his post? Or is any and every post in favor of Sourceforge scheduled to be modded up, no matter how kooky?
Ye gods, follow his links. This guy's "Lebenswerk, or life-work" is apparently coding a full artificial intelligence. In Javascript. Ooookay. The interview and the "Theory of Mind" paper on his Sourceforge page (follow his links!) aren't the most floridly elaborate piece of pseudoscience I've ever read, but it comes close.
-1 Idiot (Score:1)
Click on his user id and check out his recent comments. Ridiculous.
Re:SourceForge Will Change World History (Score:1)
Re:From the Site Director of SourceForge.net (Score:1)
Patrick, thanks for the information. I appreciate Sourceforge and what it's given us. However, I am increasingly buying into the Free Software ideology as advocated by the Free Software foundation. I'm even considering discontinuing my use of all proprietary software, at least for personal use, a boycott if you will to help push/vote the software economy in the direction I want it to go.
I've used sourceforge and have a couple of projects there. However, I was quite dismayed when sourceforge became a less than 100% free software organization, and even more at the recent announcements and name changes by VA Linux. I appreciate your position and want you to do what you have to do to stay afloat. I can't fault you for that. However, I'm going to have to leave the sourceforge boat, because it's not doing what I want anymore. I don't want high quality tools as much as I want freedom, and since GNU appears to be planning a free alternative to what sourceforge is providing, I'm going to have to go that way.
Take care, and good luck for the future! I fully expect to meet again on the other side, in better times when VA/Sourceforge comes back to the 100% open source fold! :)
VA Linux Systems and Bowie J. Poag (Score:2)
1) I thought the company was no longer "VA Linux Systems," as it had dropped the word "Linux" from its name?
2) From several articles written by Bowie J. Poag I gather than the founding of SourceForge was not quite so happy as you seem to indicate. His allegations are that VA requested that he work on such a project (at the time called system26), but that VA appropriated his work and turned it into sourceforge.
[For those who don't know, Bowie J. Poag is the main force behind Propaganda Desktop Graphics [ibiblio.org], which used to be the main feature of VA's themes.org [themes.org] until Mr. Poag deliberately destroyed the site in protest against VA's actions (it took VA about 6 months to put the site back together again, minus Propaganda, which is now at the new location linked to above).]
Re:VA Linux Systems and Bowie J. Poag (Score:3, Interesting)
Also, Bowie's original idea was for a widget repository, and frankly, we never stopped him from doing it. SF and the sf name came from other places than from Trae and Bowie (I regisetered the domain name). Bowie is under the mistaken impression that only Bowie can have an idea. IF you do a search on bowie and I in slashdot you'll see how long he's been asserting things that simply aren't true. Also, It was called system12 . He has a new project which also probably won't produce anything called system26 or whatever.
Mr Poag did not have access enough to t.o to destroy it, we took down the propaganda specific stuff ourselves and dropped his tiles into the resources set.
Chris DiBona
Re:VA Linux Systems and Bowie J. Poag (Score:2)
I find that comment funny considering our relative Slashdot UIDs. =] Not new, but perhaps misremembering some of the details of the t.o fiasco.
Also, It was called system12. He has a new project which also probably won't produce anything called system26 or whatever.
Yeah, I checked some IRC logs of him explaining this (from #kuro5hin on slashnet a while back) and you're correct. He claims (or at least claimed at the time, about a year ago) that VA still owns the system12 domain name and refuses to relinquish it, despite admitting that they have no plans to develop it, which is why he was forced to rename it to system26.
However, he did have the impression that a good deal of his ideas for system12 were silently merged into SourceForge without any credit, and that he was pushed aside. Not having been there I can't say whether this is accurate or not, but he sure seemed angry about it.
Re:VA Linux Systems and Bowie J. Poag (Score:2)
Oh, and he's angry alright. But that doesn't make his anger well placed. He and trae had some weirdness going on, but that really was outside the issue on project hosting.
We did buy the system12 domain at his request, but didn't know we still had it until he threw a fit. at that point itr was easier to let it expire than deal with him.
Chris
Re:From the Site Director of SourceForge.net (Score:4, Insightful)
So it's a service, not a software. That's interesting, because it implies that VA won't make its source code available, as a service doesn't have any source code. It is based on a software, but you didn't say that you'll continue to make its source code available as free software.
So I assume that the SourceForge software will become proprietary. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Read the FSF website some day -- free software does not refer to GPL only, it's basically a different term for open source (with some philosophical differences). E.g. the BSD license is an open source license as well as a free software license, but it is not "copyleft." I guess about 40% of the projects hosted by SF are free software, or open source, whichever term you prefer. (The other 60% are status 1, planning.)
The more interesting question is, will they continue to do so?
Parent
SourceForge .NET? (Score:2)
SourceForge (not SourceForge.net) is a collaborative software development platform.
SourceForge.net [sf.net] is a service provided freely to Open Source software development projects.
The new name SourceForge.net, and the logo [sourceforge.net] with an enlarged dot and a "net" bigger in point size than the "FORGE", remind me too much of Microsoft .NET [microsoft.net]. Are you porting it to Mono [go-mono.com] or something? I would have called the code SourceForge Engine and the site SourceForge Projects in keeping with the general policy of following trademarks with a generic noun.
Re:From the Site Director of SourceForge.net (Score:1)
Yet again we see free software proponents arguing that other people's work isn't sufficiently pure, and therefore shouldn't be used.
Its as if they believe software should be free, but people shouldn't be free to use the tools that suit them best.
From my point of view, SourceForge provides a service that some people (including myself) find useful. They should be applauded, not hassled.